* It's AI search Monday and I've got a fun one!* Here's some data about how…
Shaun Davidson
Shaun is Vice President at Sembit, a Portland-area software development agency building iOS and Android apps, web apps, and cloud backends for clients like Microsoft, Toyota, and Providence. A full-time developer and engineering manager since 1998, he is also co-founder of Zero Channel, a platform that helps businesses optimize their visibility in AI and LLM-generated recommendations.
* It's AI search Monday and I've got a fun one!* Here's some data about how many top cited sources for some (unspecified) collection of prompts are *self-serving listicles*: https://searchengineland.com/ai-search-loves-listicles-what-25000-urls-reveal-about-citations-477682 Check that out. For many models, _more than half the sources are listicles of some kind_. And we all know that, at this point, almost ALL listicles are self-serving. Some are transparent about it, some not. My question for the group is: *if this moves the needle (and it clearly does), are you willing to engage in this tactic?*
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13 replies
Ross Johnson
Ross is the founder of Three Seven, a B2B technology marketing agency he started in Ann Arbor, Michigan in 2005. With a background in technology, psychology, and fine art, he brings nearly two decades of experience helping B2B SaaS, manufacturing, and life sciences companies generate demand and qualified leads through psychology-driven design and strategy.
We've talked about it, and we’re struggling to decide. It feels slimy, so we don’t like the idea of doing it for ourselves or recommending it to clients. That said, it clearly works, so we're asking ourselves if we’re stubbornly passing up a tactic that would help our clients, and ourselves, be more successful because we feel like we're “too good to use a tactic like that?”
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Chris Bolton
Chris is the founder of Diviner Agency, a Portland-based marketing consultancy specializing in SEO, generative engine optimization, and fractional CMO services. He brings 20+ years of digital marketing experience, having previously co-founded Murmur Creative and grown it to 26 people and $3.5M in revenue. When not working he hangs out with his 12-year-old son and plays music in a band called Crater City.
I have many thoughts on this, but I will try to be succinct. The problem is not people creating listicles (People will do whatever it takes to pay the bills). The problem is that tech companies have made it desirable and perhaps even required to create listicles for visibility. Google and ChatGPT will wag their finger and say "don't do this" while they hire SEO and GEO experts to do the exact same thing with their content. We are entering an accelerated game of wack-a-mole where spam creation and spam prevention will need to move at ridiculous speeds to create some kind of equanimity, and those that do the "right thing" don't get seen. I'm not sure what the answer is exactly, but I will say that there is a reason Google and LLMs love Reddit and Wikipedia so much--the content is moderated, voted on, and managed by humans--not algorithms.
Ross Johnson
Ross is the founder of Three Seven, a B2B technology marketing agency he started in Ann Arbor, Michigan in 2005. With a background in technology, psychology, and fine art, he brings nearly two decades of experience helping B2B SaaS, manufacturing, and life sciences companies generate demand and qualified leads through psychology-driven design and strategy.
Chris Bolton As someone who provides SEO and GEO services, where are you leaning when it comes to your clients?
Shaun Davidson
Shaun is Vice President at Sembit, a Portland-area software development agency building iOS and Android apps, web apps, and cloud backends for clients like Microsoft, Toyota, and Providence. A full-time developer and engineering manager since 1998, he is also co-founder of Zero Channel, a platform that helps businesses optimize their visibility in AI and LLM-generated recommendations.
I'll be transparent here... we've recommended A VERSION of this for about 25 brands at this point. It's hard to BE visible at all without it (at least in some citations spaces), so we try to do the least scammy version of it that we can. We've done disclaimers, done data-backed lists, etc. But it's still just a stupid thing to do, and much like Chris I wish there was something else that was rewarded.
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Chris Bolton
Chris is the founder of Diviner Agency, a Portland-based marketing consultancy specializing in SEO, generative engine optimization, and fractional CMO services. He brings 20+ years of digital marketing experience, having previously co-founded Murmur Creative and grown it to 26 people and $3.5M in revenue. When not working he hangs out with his 12-year-old son and plays music in a band called Crater City.
Ross Johnson I haven't done it for a client yet. I have had multiple clients tell me specifically they DON'T want me to, but I'm sure it won't be long before someone DOES want me too. If someone did ask, I would first try to divert them towards a directory and/or barnacle SEO strategy which I think would be better long-term. Self-hosted lists will be the first thing to get nixed (and Google has already rolled out updates), so getting on top 10 lists in directories whether free or paid, and strategic posts on sites like Reddit (that are favored in LLMs) should be more sustainable. I don't have a moral objection in the abstract, especially when it comes to underdogs and small businesses.
Shaun Davidson
Shaun is Vice President at Sembit, a Portland-area software development agency building iOS and Android apps, web apps, and cloud backends for clients like Microsoft, Toyota, and Providence. A full-time developer and engineering manager since 1998, he is also co-founder of Zero Channel, a platform that helps businesses optimize their visibility in AI and LLM-generated recommendations.
Hey all - adding the @public tag here. This data will be anonymized and could be published. *IMPORTANT:* reach out and lmk if you want me to remove this! Happy to do so if you'd prefer this to stay "internal" here. (Feels safe as long as it's anonymous, but I'm more than happy to remove it if anyone objects.)
Ross Johnson
Ross is the founder of Three Seven, a B2B technology marketing agency he started in Ann Arbor, Michigan in 2005. With a background in technology, psychology, and fine art, he brings nearly two decades of experience helping B2B SaaS, manufacturing, and life sciences companies generate demand and qualified leads through psychology-driven design and strategy.
Chris Bolton Thanks, that's really helpful, and it makes sense to use an approach that delivers the same results in a more sustainable way, even if it takes more effort. Getting on paid lists seems pretty straightforward. What's your approach for getting listed in existing "Top 10 lists" that aren't paid?
Chris Bolton
Chris is the founder of Diviner Agency, a Portland-based marketing consultancy specializing in SEO, generative engine optimization, and fractional CMO services. He brings 20+ years of digital marketing experience, having previously co-founded Murmur Creative and grown it to 26 people and $3.5M in revenue. When not working he hangs out with his 12-year-old son and plays music in a band called Crater City.
Ross Johnson I actually haven't done any outreach in this regard. Broken link building might be one method. Find target listicles with old broken links and tell author about it, suggest your link. Shaun Davidson has more experience with this in GEO space than I.
Shaun Davidson
Shaun is Vice President at Sembit, a Portland-area software development agency building iOS and Android apps, web apps, and cloud backends for clients like Microsoft, Toyota, and Providence. A full-time developer and engineering manager since 1998, he is also co-founder of Zero Channel, a platform that helps businesses optimize their visibility in AI and LLM-generated recommendations.
Ross Johnson first step is to just reach out and ask! We've got one customer that's incredible at this. 2/3 lists we've asked them to get on, they've figured out how to get listed on. They often do it by networking online, “trading” positions on a list they manage, etc. Basically, each one can be different, and you just have to commit the time to figuring it out.
Shaun Davidson
Shaun is Vice President at Sembit, a Portland-area software development agency building iOS and Android apps, web apps, and cloud backends for clients like Microsoft, Toyota, and Providence. A full-time developer and engineering manager since 1998, he is also co-founder of Zero Channel, a platform that helps businesses optimize their visibility in AI and LLM-generated recommendations.
Lots of lists that are pretty straightforward though, like Clutch and DesignRush.
Ross Johnson
Ross is the founder of Three Seven, a B2B technology marketing agency he started in Ann Arbor, Michigan in 2005. With a background in technology, psychology, and fine art, he brings nearly two decades of experience helping B2B SaaS, manufacturing, and life sciences companies generate demand and qualified leads through psychology-driven design and strategy.
Shaun Davidson Good to know simply asking can work, I figured most people wouldn't add you to their list unless there is something in it for them
Shaun Davidson
Shaun is Vice President at Sembit, a Portland-area software development agency building iOS and Android apps, web apps, and cloud backends for clients like Microsoft, Toyota, and Providence. A full-time developer and engineering manager since 1998, he is also co-founder of Zero Channel, a platform that helps businesses optimize their visibility in AI and LLM-generated recommendations.
